Forum Replies Created
Vagueness and turtle slow output is a bit unsettling to be sure. One of the chief attributes of the S system is the dual shutter capability and a key reason I bought the S2 … which is a very attractive one at least from a professional photographer's POV.
I've owned the camera now for quite some time and have been unable to use the CS shutter feature that I paid for. Now it will be October or later before supply of the CS lenses are available, and it is still somewhat vague how the original swap-up program will be implemented as I was assured multiple times … another reason I bought into the S2 with FP lenses earlier than I probably should have. The H to S adapter I should get sometime later this week will help soften this issue, but few S2 owners have a full compliment of HC/HCD CS lenses like I do.
Also, IF Leica does make good on the CS trade-up, what happens to the S FP lenses you turn in? What will that do to the value of FP lenses if they are resold as warrantied referbs?
IF Hasselblad does field a dual shutter integrated H mount camera as I suspect (or hope :-), I'd be hard pressed to not go there and leave the S2 system as is. Hasselblad is not only a more comprehensive system, with True Focus it has the best MFD AF system to date, and other useful features like in viewfinder spirit level, and a T/S unit, etc.
However, IF Leica fields a S3 that does increase ISO to a clean 3200, and substantially improves the AF with multipoint and speed closer to that of some prosumer 35mm DSLRs, I would get out of 35mm altogether (for my applications). I originally bought the S2 with AF Leica optics to take over more 35mm DSLR work than MFD applications, and in many cases it has done just that. So, I would fund a S3 by selling off most or all of my 35mm stuff, and keep the S2 as back-up rather than taking a ferocious loss.
-Marc
Or keep it for the reasons you bought it, and don't worry about it.
-Marc
I don't understand your post Roger.
Are you saying factory new S2s with 1 year warranty at $11,000? Or used S2s with a 1 year warranty?
Either way, using the rough 1/3-2/3 dealer buy pricing model, that would place the value of the S2 in our hands at $7,500 or less. That would be the worst value ratio of any MFD brand to date based on having moved through 9 models of Hasselblad cameras in past, and tracking the value guarantee of Phase One systems for as many years.
If this bears out, this will be the last Leica S camera for me … I'll use it as is which is fine, and keep upgrading my Hasselblad using their trade-up program, and my dealer loyalty incentives.
Photokina with be the determining factor. Hasselblad is rumored to be on the move under the new management and deep pockets owners, so it'll be interesting.
-Marc
Andrew;2754 wrote: From Lloys Chambers Blog (posted today):
http://diglloyd.com/index.html
Leica S2
From what I hear, the situation is carnage on the Leica S2 front.
My multiple sources suggest that brand-new Leica S2 bodies might be being sold as “demo” or “display sample” units at quite significant discounts. This could only be done if Leica were discounting aggressively to dealers— I am speculating here but I doubt I’m completely off the mark.
Furthermore, used Leica S2 bodies seem to be dropping towards the $10K mark ( somewhat higher prices still, but discounting for the lens…), and I predict that we will see used S2 body prices drop towards the $8K mark by later this fall, especially if a higher resolution model (S3?) becomes available.
With the Leica S lenses the best in the world, a deeply discounted S2 body could be an attractive proposition for some photographers. While my D800 comparison to the Leica S2 looked pretty darn competitive for the D800, the fact is that the S glass is hard to even approach in quality, with only a few exceptions.
LOL! Do not believe everything you read on the internet … including your own wishful speculations. Lloyd has had a bug up his snout over Leica for sometime now, so I'd even read what he has to say with a grain of salt.
While there are always those in a hurry, or distressed sellers of almost anything, they are an anomaly, not the trend as implied. These “the sky is falling” price posts are common in the months close to Photokina. it has to be hard to sell a new anything, or a used version of it, just before the next model comes out.
Counter speculation:
My multiple inside sources tell me the new M10 will be close to $10,000. and CMOS which will leave the M9P the last great FF CCD image rangefinder … speculation: prices of the M9/M9P will stabilize to pre-launch levels after the initial offering and cacophony about the M10 dies down. The impatient and their money will soon be parted … LOL!
Same for the S2 once the rumored same sized sensor CMOS S3 is launched and the novelty wears off, and people realize what was lost.
It will be interesting to see if Leica will fire sale S2s. Not exactly in keeping with their newly minted and aggressive luxury and prestige strategic stance. $28,000 Rolex watch, now 50% off … really? If I can get a S2 for $8K, I'll grab one for sure, mount the H to S adapter to it, and put it in my Hasselblad roller as back-up to the H4D/60, or for more mobile use. I know a bunch of Hassey users that'll do the same thing in a New York heart beat.
So, why would anyone shell out $28K, when the last model with the same size sensor is available for $8K?
Also, my sources tell me that some of the initial D800 people looking to replace MFD are already disillusioned and are dumping out of the Nikon to return to MFD … reports that the lenses just do not cut it, and that the sensor is doing odd things to the imagery no matter how you process the files. Lemmings and their money are soon parted.
-Marc
Just got word that mine should be here next week.
I DO have the H lens system … most interested in how the HC50-II and 100 do.
Still want the S/CS versions also … 1/1000 with he S-120/2.5 … yummy.
-Marc
I wouldn't know how the HC-100/2.2 will look on the S2 yet Stephan … I'm still waiting for my H to S adapter … (Grrrr ; -( Missed a BIG opportunity last week and had to use the H4D/60 for a big paid shoot because I needed high-speed sync for the entire day. The S2's 1/125th top sync speed wasn't an option. I really wanted to use the S2 for this job.
I sort of know what the images will look like because I previously used the HC lenses on a H4D/40 with a 1/3.3X crop factor. What will be new is using the HC-100/2.2 wide open in bright available light conditions because of the S2's 1/4000 focal plane speed, where the H4D is limited to 1/800 top shutter unless using NDs.
Thanks, for the correction on the Leica provided H lens profiles … I had forgotten about that … I loaded them when first available, and they are waiting to be used … hopefully soon.
-Marc
rudlinfineart;2261 wrote: As I understand the H literature, the H digital lenses are purposely designed NOT to
be optically correct, but require correction in software. It would seem that this limits
the true usability and desirability of these lenses on the S system (unless of course
you just happen to already have the lenses). Why would I want a lens that is not
optically correct? I am not convinced that software correction of an incorrectly captured
image will equate to an image captured “correctly” in the first place.I recognize that this expands the available focal lengths for the S system, and this is
obviously desirable. But, does this also alleviate the “pressure” on Leica to develop and
release a wider range of focal lengths of S-lenses? That would not be good.FYI, all of the H lenses are NOT purposely designed to require software corrections. The use of software corrections was initially employed on HCD (digital) lenses like the 28/4 and 35-90 to keep costs down on very difficult W/A or zoom designs. It was expanded to other lenses because it worked so well. Some of the corrections on some H lenses are barely noticeable if at all, when used.
The corrections are called DAC … and deals with: Distortion, Chromatic Aberration/fringing, and Vignetting by means of feedback information of focal length, distance and aperture setting. BTW, DAC is also available for classic Zeiss V lenses which have to be set manually in the software, because there is no e-data as to distance, etc..
Initially, these H software corrections were only available to Hasselblad H users through their Phocus software. Then Hasselblad provided the lens profiles to Adobe, and are now available for use in Lightroom and Photoshop … making them available when H lenses are used on the S2.
Likewise, Leica has provided lens correction profiles to Adobe, and the same type of software corrections are available in Lightroom … and like with the Hasselblad lenses, some Leica-S lenses show very little correction if any (S-180mm), and some show more (S-35mm).
There are no perfect lens designs, some compromises are inherent in each lens somewhere and show up more and more as the resolution of digital sensors increase … these Digital Automatic Corrections help, and are no more artificial looking than if laboriously done manually in the post processing stage … except they are faster and more accurate because they are based on each individual lenses' exact electronic feed-back.
The most important aspect of the H to S adapter is not just the expansion of focal lengths , but the use of select lenses with excellent character … like the HC100/2.2, the new 50mm-II, 210/4 with near perfect bokeh, and the very sharp HC120-II Macro that focuses 1:1 which the S120/2.5 cannot do.
Nice AF, leaf-shutter lens expansion of the S system IMO, and helps lessen a chief criticism of the S system from professional photographers that see the system as too limiting.
-Marc
What an honor Roger!
I believe a few photos from that conflict were instrumental in ending it, and that was one of them. I also remember the sudden end of “Eisenhowerian naivety” when Life published the cover of Lt. Cali about the My Lai massacre.
I wouldn't even try to account for my missed moments in the face of a war correspondent changing film while something so tragic and iconic like that was happening.
-Marc
Very cool Josh!
I like the composition. That you also caught a glimpse into the rooms far left is pretty neat.
-Marc
It'll have to be a surprise upgrade to make me part with that much cash again. It was the lenses I was after.
I don't have any issues with the box as is … I prefer they do not add a tap screen, or a joy-stick or more wheels. The 5 custom quick sets worked perfectly for me on day one … I just set them up in a counter clock-wise fashion starting top left, in order of importance and frequency of use. Easy to remember.
IMO, the S2 doesn't need the ISO jacked up much higher, just tweaked and cleaned up a bit via firmware (like Hasselblad did) … high ISO should be mandatory with the M10.
Wouldn't mind it if Leica allowed the option of reversing the direction of the wheel. 1/2 stop ISO increments wouldn't hurt either.
So, IMO, the real measure of Leica's commitment to the S “Pro” franchise is whether they continue improving the S2 once the S3 is here.
-Marc
Yeah Mark, I'm not sure what I'm seeing either … LOL!
It really is two different looks and feels to a similar subject partially driven by the ability of the cameras as they now compare. When I get the leaf-shutter S lenses, they will be much closer in ability to work with lighting.
I am also dying to get my hands on the H to S adapter which will allow the same optics on both cameras … I have a big shoot coming up on the 12th of this month and had dearly hoped the adapter would be here by then … now I seriously doubt it will be : -(
Marc
Should have add Kurt K to the “candid” mention above.
-Marc
Thanks.
What I find interesting with the S2 is the ability to do so many styles of photography with it. While the shots I've posted here fall more into the non-candid arena, or are more structured in approach … there is nothing really dictating this. It is just a more MFD type use, especially when using lighting.
I now want to evolve more into the candid areas of photography with it which I actually am more well known for in my art and business. I think Mark G has demonstrated that aspect of the S2 quite well.
Trouble is I still have a M camera which I associate with that type of work more than any SLR type camera …
-Marc
Mark Gowin;2577 wrote: Beautiful lady and photographs. My first reaction was that I preferred background rendering of the Hasselblad HC210mm over the Leica S120mm and in general preferred the Hasselblad photo. However, upon closer inspection of the web sized images, I think the difference has more to do with the lighting than the lens rendering.
The Hasselblad photo has nice hair light (looks like natural light streaming in) and the front fill brightens the eyes and gives them a pleasing catchlight. Also, it appears the fill light allowed for a shorter exposure and darker background – although that could be a result of changing natural light. Anyway, the thing I first found most pleasing about the Hasselblad background rendering was the abscence of distracting circles/aberrations – the S120mm seemed to have more of them. Then it occurred to me that the difference between the photos is the background in the S120mm photo has more bright spots in it and show up as circles. The Hasselblad shot has circles also, but they are not bright so the major difference between the two renderings is the background lighting. The H4D/60 and HC210 combo appears to have a more shallow depth of field than the S2 and 120mm combo which may also account for some of the difference.
There is something about the S2 photo that I really like, but the Hasselblad photo is also very very good. I wonder if the comparison would very different if the lighting had been constant.
Mark, the point wasn't to make a comparison in the literal sense of the word. I was shooting a job, not testing systems.
It just happened that I wanted to shoot the photographer with my H4D/60 in hand and I don't have two of them : -) … so I pressed the S2 into service. For most of the shoot, I needed the higher sync speed of the H camera to control the background ambient … which you rightly observed in these two shots … the H shot was done at a higher shutter speed which altered the rendering of the ambient light. 1/160 at f/4 wasn't an option with the S2 … but will be as soon as I get my hands on the H to S adapter, or the S/CS version lenses … which then will open up those options.
What I found interesting is the difference in draw … the background in the S2 120mm shot packed up the background closer to the subject than the 210 did, which appears further away. Interesting how different sized sensors and use of different focal lengths Provides different looks and feel to an image. However, we have to also keep in mind that the S2 was cropped a bit more to meet the 8X10 ratio for 16″ X 20″ prints.
-Marc
P.S., just completed a multi-location “engagement” portrait session where I used the S2 w/35/70/120 exclusively and did 90% of it ambient only since it was overcast … then the sun made an un-predicted reappearance (weatherman wrong again!) So, the other 10% really should have been done with higher sync speeds and powerful strobes like the Hensel Porty 1200L … but I made do with a large 1 stop silk scrim for those that I could. The couple up in the tree below should have been lit with off-camera high-speed sync and a big Fresnel at max spread … but, oh well, the SF58 had to do.
Take a peek if you have a minute … to stay in budget, all done in the space of 2 hours including driving time to two different locations and the clients changing wardrobe. A couple shots came out pretty good, and I had a bit of creative post fun with a few. The client is deliriously happy which is all that really matters. All in a day's work : -)
http://fotografz.smugmug.com/Portraits/Sam/23645181_FGkFKt#!i=1913620314&k=XcfxqpG
Good observations Stephan.
The slight temperature differences can probably be directly attributed to more strobe lighting used on the Hassey shot compared to more ambient (shade) on the S2 shot. Lighting is often the biggest single factor … however, up big, I do like the S2 shot a lot for its more natural look and feel. Just different lighting really.
The H4D/60 uses a full 645 sensor, and if I recall correctly, as the sensor size and meg count increases, the DOF gets shallower. It also uses a Dalsa sensor which is renowned for its skin tones.
I'm waiting for my H to S adapter, and when I get it I'll be able to do a pretty comprehensive comparison of the HC lenses on the S2 with it's smaller sensor to see the effect with different focal lengths. Of course the character will be different with the HC optics, but I think that may be a good thing and provide S2 users with more choice while still retaining AF and gaining High Speed sync with a broader range of focal lengths
I have the newer HC50-II and 150N as well as the 100/2.2 … and will shortly trade my current HC120/4 Macro for the newer version with better close up performance and has a bit higher diffraction limit. Compared to the S-120/2.5, the HC 120 does 1:1 … so it should be interesting to add the versatility.
-Marc
BTW, those thinking of adding a HC lens should avoid the older 50mm, the new one is light years better. Hassey had to upgrade some of their lenses to meet the demands of the 60 meg back and the 50 or 200 multi-shot cameras. The 150N verses the previous one is dependent on application, if for portraits, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot.
